Transcript: Former Miami Beach Mayor Philip Levine Interviews Governor Andrew M. Cuomo on NYC Mayor Race
Governor Andrew M. Cuomo, candidate for New York City Mayor, sat down for an interview with former Miami Beach Mayor and entrepreneur Philip Levine during the debut of Levine’s new SiriusXM series, “Mayor to Mayor.” Levine sits down with mayors and leaders from across the country for candid conversations on leadership, innovation, and cutting through the noise to get things done and enact real change, all while navigating the current political landscape.
A transcript of the interview appears below.
Mayor Levine: I’m the former mayor of the sixth borough of New York, which is called Miami Beach, and I'm quite honored today to have the former Governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo and, you know, Mr. Governor, I think everybody kind of–they know you. People know who you are because you have a huge legacy of public service and things that you've done both in the federal and a state level in New York, and I've known you for many years, but you know, experience matters. Tell us, a little bit because a lot of our viewers are all around the country listening to this, a little about how you started in public service and maybe start with your amazing father that is quite legendary.
Governor Cuomo: Good, I will, it's my pleasure. First, thank you very much for having me. It's good to see you again. And you're right, we have known each other a long time, maybe more years than we care to remember. I started with my father, people know, was Governor of New York State, ran from 1982 to 1994 he was Governor, and prior to being Governor, he had run for Mayor of New York City, 1977, lost to Ed Koch, then ran for Governor in 1982. So I helped him in those races and he actually had a couple of races before that. You know, people only remember the victories, but he lost, he ran for Lieutenant Governor and he lost, he ran for Mayor and he lost, and then he ran for Governor and he won. And I was involved in those campaigns and then he was the Governor for 12 years and, I was helpful to him from a distance. I went to the Manhattan DA's office, I was practicing law. But during those 12 years, I watched, I learned quite a bit from him. He was a phenomenal guy, not just because he's my father, but he was a special human being and he was a great public servant. So that's how I started, if you will, and then I went into the Clinton administration with Bill Clinton as soon as he got elected. I actually went down to help on the transition. The Clinton transition and I went down for a weekend I'll never forget I packed a bag for a weekend to advise the Clinton transition on homelessness and housing issues because I was building affordable housing at the time with it a not for profit and working with the homeless so I went down for a weekend to advise the transition committee and then basically never came back and stayed all eight years with the Clinton administration. Then came back and ran for Governor unsuccessfully and then became Attorney General and then Governor.
Mayor Levine: And then governor. You know, it's great to hear that. You know it's interesting. People always think that folks that are in office, they've always won, they've won office. I mean, listen, I was a Mayor, two term Mayor, I ran for governor, tried a primary and didn't win and when I hear stories of folks like yourself or like your dad that, you know, they lost before they won, but they kept going. They were just so damn persistent and that's a key, I think, to success and everything. You learned a lot about affordable housing, how to house people in the Clinton administration, in HUD, these are things that you've carried with you forever?
Governor Cuomo: Well, you know, Phil, I use a line, we have to remember what we forgot, you know, the Democratic party, seems to have forgotten a lot of the things we knew, right? Affordable housing, we started as in this country in the 40s, affordable housing, with public housing all across the country, and then we experimented with different varieties, mixed income housing, low income housing, tax credits, section eight, financed, housing, so we have been building affordable housing exquisitely well for a long time. It's almost as if we've forgotten what we once knew or if we've lost the competency to do what we once did, or the political will to do what we once did?
Mayor Levine: Yes.
Governor Cuomo: – But the performance, we know how to do these things, right? Homelessness, I did a plan for Mayor David Dinkins, in the early 90s on how to deal with homelessness, took the same plan it became the blueprint in the Clinton administration. The continuum of care, brought it all across the country. We went – you'll remember Albert Chapman, God rest his soul.
Mayor Levine: Of course. Miami, yes.
Governor Cuomo: And he started as a businessman, but he started a foundation that was working with the homeless and providing everything that we would provide today, the continuum of care, getting people off the streets, treating mental health, et cetera. So, yes, there's a whole expertise of government that we–
Mayor Levine: You brought something up, you used a word that I like to use a lot called competency, and which leads me into the next area that I'd like to get into you with– what the hell happened to democratic competency? Because let's just start with the election that we experienced last year, and, you know, I'll say it could I say it like it is, if some folks who don't like Trump, you know, they they say he's Frankenstein, but when anyone says that, I'm the first to say, well, if he's Frankenstein, the Democratic party is, they're Dr. Frankenstein. They created what's there today because of so many areas and I and your thoughts, what the hell went wrong with the Democratic Party right now? It's the most toxic brand in the world and then we know it and what do you believe happened in that election last year?
Governor Cuomo: Yeah, it's a good point. I like to say that Trump didn't win, the Democratic party lost. And it's almost as if the Democratic Party disassociated from Democrats. We got the party of middle class, working families. That's who we are. And we tended to focus on these elitist abstract issues and we left our seat at the kitchen table, right? Our people are at the table every morning and they’re worried about their life. They’re worried about their mortgage and their child's education and their car payment and their taxes. And we vacated that spot and you know, we pursued ideals. You can pursue the ideal, but we live in the real and you can't be pursuing ideals and not paying attention to the real conditions of day to day life. That's what we did and so we lost, we disassociated, if you will, and then there was a going back to the point you raised, there was a lack of performance by the Democratic party. You look at a lot of the cities across the country and they were in trouble and they were getting worse, right? Homelessness, et cetera, and, going back to the old HUD days, every city, it's a concentric circle and then you have a metropolitan region, reliant on that central city, as goes the central city, goes the metropolitan region, and they're watching this deterioration, and it's not getting any better. And Democrats almost didn't even acknowledge the problem.
Mayor Levine: They didn't understand it. Yeah, no question about it Governor, and I think it's like, you felt it on the street. You heard it from people. You had friends, I'm sure like me that, you know, they were like Clinton Democrats that all of a sudden couldn't vote for Kamala Harris. They couldn't continue the misery of what the Democratic Party seemed to be bringing on the country. And I'm saying that as a Democrat and, it's one of these things where I'm sure you felt it you heard it and it has to be a very frustrating thing as someone who spent their life so far really doing great things in public service.
Governor Cuomo: Yeah, well I think you let's put the immigration issue aside for a second, because that's, I believe that was really the tipping point. I think when you are a Democrat, it is about your premise as a Democrat, is that government will work to make a difference for people, right? The old line, the best politics is the best government, for Democrats, the best government is the best politics. Republicans make the other argument. Government does no good for you, the less government, the better. So, the burden is on us to show that government can actually make a difference. And it's a very simple equation. I think at the end of the day, what did you do for me, right? I'm selfish. What did you do? What did your administration do? What did your government do for me? I gave you taxes, I voted for you, you said you represented me. What did you do for me? And if you don't have an answer or more importantly, then don't have an answer to that question, then you failed them and I think we lost that equation somewhere along the way, you know? What did you do for me?
Mayor Levine: And how do you see the road home? Because it's like, you know, I saw what Senator Booker did. I appreciate that he sat there and spoke for 25 hours. I got a lot of respect for him. That's great. But is that the way back? I mean, what do you see? Is that the way back? Just– we're on a national level now, then we'll get micro with the city of New York and that's a whole big part of this conversation, but on a national level, what is the road back?
Governor Cuomo: Yeah, well, let's say two tracks, right? First, offense and defense. The Democratic party has to perform. The Democratic Party has to vindicate the Democratic Party. This is who we are, this is what we believe. I represent you, I believe these are your issues. These are my issues, we have to reassociate, if you will, with the values and the principles of working families across this country, and then we have to deliver. Then we have to perform, right? Because you're at a point where people aren't just going to take your word for it. I want proof positive. I want evidence that you can make government perform, improve situations, improve my situation, right? I think, that's the Democratic offense, who we are, what we believe, and what we can do. And I'll show you what we can do. I'll build new schools, I'll clean up the city, I'll bring down the crime rate, I'll get the mentally ill homeless off the streets, et cetera. So, that's one part, and then the second part of it is, I think Donald Trump now representing the Republicans. I think in many ways, he will create his own issue. I think we're seeing it already. I think he will overdo it, if you will, and he will have a real negative impact on people. I think what happened now with the tariffs and the markets, et cetera, is the first time people said, “whoa, you know, President Trump's leadership, his volatility,” people saw the upside in that, right? “He's strong, he's shaking things up, DOGE– he's firing people, he's tough with the Ukrainian situation,” this volatile leadership seemed positive. Now you see the flip side of volatile leadership, right? Liberation Day, tariffs, the whole market falls.
Mayor Levine: People are calling it obliteration day.
Governor Cuomo: Yes, my 401K became a 201K, you know, so now it hits home.
Mayor Levine: You know, Governor, you know this, that you know, the challenge, of course, is that, you know, we have these primaries. I'm in a red state of Florida that used to be a blue state, then it was a purple state. And, you know, they had two special elections for Congressional seats and both Democrats lost. And, you know, a Democratic party trying to pretend somehow, oh, there is a glimmer of hope there. It's like, please, enough, losing– we lost both of them. And there was no glimmer of hope, because you have one guy running his name was Josh Wile, who was a left wing, incredibly, you know, aggressive way out to the left, and by the way, you can't win that way. You win in a nice blue district that way, but it's very hard to win statewide in a state like Florida that way, or in mixed districts, let's just say, how do we get through this type of situation in the country for Democrats?
Governor Cuomo: Well, look, it's I'll go back to the point about you can pursue the ideal, right? I love that the Democratic Party aspires. I love that it believes we can be better than we are. And we set the bar very high on our ideals and God bless us for that, right, a more perfect nation. At the same time, live in the real. Help me today, help me today. I'm suffering today. I have real problems today, and I need you to hear me, and I feel like you're not hearing me, and I feel like if you're hearing me, you're not responding and you're not delivering. And I think that's why I think we win the abstract, inspirational, aspirational. We lose the practical day to day. You have cities all across this country. What is happening in these cities? What is happening in LA in Chicago and San Francisco and Portland and New York? What's happening? Those are all Democratic places. What are you guys doing?
Mayor Levine: Well, that's a great transition, and let me just say, I'm Philip Levine, this is the mayor to mayor, I'm the former mayor of Miami Beach, sixth borough of New York, and I am talking to the former Governor of New York, and now we're gonna get into– God, it's a sweet spot for me and it's gonna be and it is a sweet spot for you, Governor, what the hell is happening with these blue cities? When I see these mayors in LA, in Chicago and all the various cities across the country, I'm embarrassed as a democrat to watch the level of incompetency. What have you seen and why have they been the leaders? I'm just gonna say it like it is. It’s such object failure in these cities.
Governor Cuomo: Yeah, what's fascinating, and you can appreciate this as a Mayor, what these are not new problems. That's what's fascinating. There's nothing new here. We have homeless people on the streets. We have homeless people who are mentally ill. We have had mentally ill people since the beginning of humanity. We've had mentally ill people on the streets. We have a whole body of law that addresses just that, right? A person who is mentally ill and endangers themselves, endangers others. There's a whole body of law that's been litigated, five times over to protect civil rights and civil liberties and has been challenged and upheld. We have the law, we have the know how, we know how to provide mental health services. Why aren't we doing it? Why are you allowing mentally ill people who are obviously in distress, who are endangering themselves, as well as endangering others? Why aren't you doing something? Is it competence? Is it a new political philosophy that says, well, “this is an expansion of our civil rights theory” it's inexplicable– affordable housing. Why are cities suffering with affordable housing the way they are? You know, affordable housing. I was building affordable housing in my 20s. It's not that hard. You take a brick, you put a little cement, you put another brick– you know, why? Why is this?
Mayor Levine: When you get into the affordable housing, you know this bed than anybody else, it's the Democrats, and I as a mayor, I have experienced it that creates so many roadblocks, so much regulation, so much bureaucracy, so many boards, so many committees that you can't get anything built. So you have the same group, that's saying we need affordable housing, we need workforce housing. They're the same ones that are saying, “hey, you can't build it this way, you got environmental, this way, you can't do this,” and it comes down to the reason why nothing gets done in these blue cities. What do you think about that? And how do you change it?
Governor Cuomo: Well, first I think you with the simple recognition that a Mayor, a Governor, County Executive, these are executive positions. They're not legislative positions. Legislature, legislative position, that's one set of skills. We tend to overlook the fact that when you're a chief executive, you have to be an executive, right? So you have to know how to manage and I think we tend to underestimate that. Obvious point, not just as Democrats, but as a nation, we elect people who have no experience managing, and then we're shocked and surprised, when they couldn't manage, you know what made you think they could manage? They’ve never managed well.
Mayor Levine: You wouldn't hire them in the private sector to do anything. Why are you gonna hire him to run such a complicated organization?
Governor Cuomo: 100%. It's almost like the disrespect or disregard of government goes to a new level where you didn't even think you needed a skill to manage. Manager of New York City, 300,000 employees, $112 billion budget, right? You need to know how to manage before you do that job. So I think that's one part of the equation. Second is the ball of red tape that we tend to wrap ourselves in as Democrats, and, you know, the old adage for politicians, “he or she who does nothing does nothing wrong,” right?
Mayor Levine: Oh, I. Oh, I've seen it. You're right. Of course–yes.
Governor Cuomo: Cautious. Cautious. Don't make anyone upset. Don't do anything that upsets anyone for any reason. Yeah, then you wind up doing nothing. And you know when you do nothing, then for sure you fail, right?
Mayor Levine: Yes.
Governor Cuomo: I think that then comes into play, and this we're politically hypercautious that we will only do things where there is no objection by anyone, which means by definition, you will do nothing. Every major project, accomplishment, piece of legislation that I did was controversial. Before the fact, right? After the fact, everybody shows up to cut the ribbon, but before the fact, you're on your own.
Mayor Levine: One hundred percent. I know what that feeling is like, so, which which dovetails into the the most, you know, timely thing right now is that you're a former three-term Governor, and now you put your hat in the ring, you're gonna run for mayor of really truly the most important city in America, if not the world, tell me, Governor, why do you want to do this to yourself? Tell me what are you– what are you thinking? What's the– what made you to say, I'm gonna be the Mayor of New York City?
Governor Cuomo: Well, it was not my life plan to tell you the truth. I had done several tours of duty. I had done my public service and I was living life, but I was watching New York City and how the political situation was evolving in New York City, and I am worried about New York City. You know, cities often have economic cycles, right? And I saw this as HUD secretary working with cities, all across the country. Yes, they sometimes have cycles. Sometimes it's not a cycle, and sometimes it's just a declining trajectory, the city gets into trouble. People start to leave, you lose the tax base. You now have a problem, you either increase taxes which accelerates the loss of the base, or you cut services which accelerates the loss of the base, right? New York City has lost about 500,000 people. Aggravating that for all cities, by the way, is this post COVID reality. “I don't have to be there anymore. I can stay home. I can stay in my suburban bedroom community or by the way, I can move to a different state with remote work.” So, the whole urban– the whole urban challenge, not just New York, New York in many ways is emblematic, and in many ways it is not as bad as some other cities, but it's much more challenging now for a city, because remote work gives me flexibility, cities have issues that they're not dealing with, so I don't enjoy going to the city the way I did. And this is a frightening combination of factors and that's what's happening in New York York City, among others, and that’s what has to be addressed.
Mayor Levine: Governor, I gotta tell you, I, you know, being in Miami, those 500,000 people you mentioned, I think they moved into my neighborhood in Miami, okay? Everybody has moved to Florida. I used to say in and it comes down to competency and I can say it, you can't. We– you know, we saw who I believe was the worst Mayor in American history, Bill de Blasio, who followed who I thought was the greatest mayor in American history, who was Mike Bloomberg. You know, in Miami, we felt that we should take our entire marketing budget and give it to De Blasio to convince him to run for a third term because he was doing so good for Miami. He was the best thing that ever happened to South Florida– all the wealth moved, all the opportunities came here, and of course, right now, you know, with Mayor Adams, there have been so many challenges and problems. It's unfortunate. So what when I think of you running for mayor with your experience and competency and we'll talk about that, it's frightening for Miami. We can't have you win the mayorship of New York, you're gonna hurt Miami. And, so I can tell you that as someone who is a part time resident in New York City, so I ask you this– you're running for Mayor, you win the election. What are the most important things you want to do on day one– hit the ground? What are you gonna do?
Governor Cuomo: First we want to stabilize. You just wanna stabilize. People in New York are very on edge. There's an anxiety you can feel it on the streets, right? Because this has been a relatively sudden change and there's an anxiety and people are nervous and people are wondering, should I stay, should I go? There have been some poles that are shocking– how many people are actually thinking of moving and how many would move if they could move? And when I say we're losing people, yeah we're losing the wealthiest because they are paying the highest percentage of taxes, so they save the most by moving to a state like Florida, low tax state, and aggravating that, this state's tax code, the top one percent pay fifty percent of the taxes, top one percent pay fifty percent of the taxes. So, you can't lose that many of the one percent, right? But we're also losing middle class and young families, we’re losing middle class homeowners who can now sell their home for $400,000 or $500,000, move to a state and buy a house for $200,000, you know, put $200-300,000 in the bank. So that exodus is across the board. So stabilize– stabilize. One is public safety.
Mayor Levine: Number one.
Governor Cuomo: Public safety is job one. We've always said it. Again, somehow we forgot that lesson, but public safety is job one. Mayor Dinkins, I mentioned before, first black mayor in New York City came in, had a crime problem, increased the police force by about 40%. Why? Because 75% of the victims of crime are black and brown, you have to stabilize the city. It has to be safe. The same is true here. Safe streets, safe cities, safe streets, safe cities. We need more police.
Mayor Levine: Governor, how do you get them to be police? I could imagine being an NYPD police officer right now and as I said, I'm a part time resident, I'm walking those streets all the time and remember, I said part time, I don't want anyone to be able to capture me for tax purposes in New York. But how do you bring up the culture, the confidence to make them feel better about their jobs? Because the NYPD has always been the finest. But how do you change?
Governor Cuomo: Well, I think the people have changed that. You know, there was, and this is an issue in this campaign now – people who are running for mayor, they were all defund the police, right? Defund the police. That was the mantra. That was what all the politically cool people were saying: defund the police, take a billion dollars out of the police, reduce the police force 3000, which they did, which then put a tremendous burden on the remaining police officers who were forced to work overtime. We have one of the highest attrition rates ever from the police department with this defund the police came a disrespect for the police. Now look, we need trained police and respectful police– people who are police who understand and respect the community they serve but respect is a two way street, right? And we have to respect the police also and they have to feel that. And I think once they understand that there's gonna be a real force, you don't have to work, so many hours of low time that you you never see your family again, and you respected, and you have the support of the mayor, that you will see people, come back to a situation where they want to be recruited, because you're right. We have a recruitment problem. We haven't attrition problem and a recruitment problem, which is a bad combination.
Mayor Levine: No question, and and you know, and you create a safe city, private sector will do the rest, and economic opportunities will come, but if you don't have a safe city, people leave no matter what the case may be. Now, you have a relatively new police commissioner Jessica Tish. how do you feel? How is she doing these days?
Governor Cuomo: She has done a good job, Phil. She came into a bad situation that had been a lot of turnover in the police department, a lot of politics, scandals in the police department. She's come in, she had stabilized the police department. She's not a political person per se, she's a, she's just done a professional job and I think that she's made a positive difference. This is no doubt about that. We still have this recruitment issue. We still need more police officers, and I think that to get back a few questions. Job One Phil would be you have to get the mentally ill, homeless off the streets. For their own sake, for their own. I mean, you know, I've been working with the homeless, since I've been in my 20s as HUD secretary, we redesigned all the homeless programs, we won awards for the programs we put in place. We know how to do it. We just have to do it and get the mentally ill off the streets because the random assaults are what's creating a lot of the anxiety. You know, you can be walking down the street now you mentally ill person just comes over and and hits you for no reason, but because they're mentally ill, that I think would be number two, and then number three is the affordability crisis, which is going to get worse, by the way of the President Trump in the tariffs, but that has to be addressed, that's partially childcare, I'd like to see more free bus routes in New York City, I'd like to see an taxes come down on middle class working families and can affordable housing affordable housing affordable housing because you want those young people coming into the city, their the talent and then the businesses is chase that the talent, right? The big. So, I would say those are the top priorities.
Mayor Levine: Right away, those are you know, the great thing is Governor, just only because I know your background is that you've actually have a lifetime of doing these things. You have the ability to execute. You know, what I find is that, you know, folks that don't have competency, usually hire people that don't have competency because birds in the feather flock together and I'm not pointing my finger at the current administration in New York City, but I've watched who they've hired. I've seen the revolving door at the police department. Thankfully at the end of Mayor Adam's term, he may have possibly hopefully have hired the right commissioner, but, you know, the question is, you know, bringing in the right team, people that you know that you can lead that have competency in every area here. Like, you know, even just— I drive on the streets in New York, I'm coming from La Guadia airport and we'll get into that in a second, but like, I see trash on the roads. And if I was a mayor and I saw trash like that, I would have to stop my car, I would go nuts. I'd be calling someone and saying, what? I don't ever want to see this again— you're not gonna work here ever again. How do you feel about when you see trash around the city or on the streets?
Governor Cuomo: You know, 100 percent. I'm with you. Maybe we're both a little obsessive compulsive, by the way, but I think but I'm with you, you know, you are responsible for the operation of the governmental corporation, right? And it’s those unnecessary things. It's the trash, it's we have a rat problem, New York, it's the graffiti, it's the grime, it's this sense that things are just out of control and nobody's really running the operation, the degradation. It's just a deterioration that is palpable.
Mayor Levine: There's no question. I get to both points sometimes that I'm in the city. I'm like, you know, who is the CEO? Why would the CEO not see what I see? And why wouldn't the CEO not be able to sleep at night until they fix this problem? It's either they're not competent or they don't care and I don't know which one it is, but I see it and I hear from everybody in the city. That's the reason why they want change and they want to go to competency. I think that's the most important thing. Now, you talked about Trump. We brought his name up, let's assume you get elected, you're the mayor of New York City. How do you feel you'll be able to to operate with President Trump? What what you're feeling there?
Governor Cuomo: Well I have a lot of experience with President Trump. I was Governor during Covid. So we had more than our fair share of exchanges and we've had more than our fair share of battles, right? Obviously, the federal government is going to be very important to New York City, and cities all across the country, because cities are gonna need federal help, you know, they are deteriorated to a point where they're not gonna have the financial capacity to bail themselves out. You're going to need federal help, and I hope President Trump realizes that. On the other hand, you may be in a situation where cities have to protect themselves against President Trump. You take the immigration issue and he said different things, but if a person is in New York, specifically, illegally, and they commit a serious crime, deport the person. 100% we don't harbor criminals. I would cooperate with ICE with that. But when they talk about— we're going into schools, to go after children, or hospitals or houses of worship, I mean, that's— that to mean, is to me it's just inhumane. My guess is they're going to look to cut funding to blue cities and blue states, right? He's gonna wanna do a tax cut and he's gonna need money and he's going to go after funding streams that go to cities like Medicaid, which would be devastating to a state like New York or California or Illinois, et cetera. Also, by the way, Republican states also get Medicaid and they're going to feel the paying also. But, that will be a point of contention. So I think a lot of it is waiting to see what he does and how far he goes, but immigration is going to be a point of contention. The funding is going to be a point of contention.
Mayor Levine: I'm, I mean, the governor will we all know that President Trump is fully transactionable. I mean, that's who he is, that's who he's been his whole life, which could be good, it could be bad, but, you know, I have to believe in my heart of hearts, President Trump would want what's right for New York City. I mean, this is where he grew up, this is a place that he has holds deep in his heart. And wouldn’t you think that the right kind of mayor who can speak to speak with him, would, would be able to work with him? To make the city better?
Governor Cuomo: Oh, Phill if he wants to, New York City, look I’m all ears. I'm representative of New York. When I was governor, I represented the people of New York. If you're going to help the people of New York, I am all in. There's no politics here, right? You don't get to say, well, I the Democrat or a Republican No, no, no. You're going to help the people in my state help people in my city—great I'm there. And as governor, I mean, I made many trips to the White House, looking for projects that we could partner on, infrastructure projects, et cetera. So the same as the mayor, if he wants to be cooperative, great.
Mayor Levine: Governor Hochul, the relationship, you know, you would be mayor and she'd be the governor. What would you expect in that relationship?
Governor Cuomo: The Governor Hochul, I first selected to be Lieutenant Governor.
Mayor Levine: Number two.
Governor Cuomo: Yeah. So I worked with her and the governor's agenda, the mayor's agenda is basically the same. The governor needs New York City to do well. New York City is the economic engine, so you have the same agenda, right, as, make New York City as strong as possible, so we'd be on the same track on that.
Mayor Levine: Public transportation—key. I mean, making those subways safe, cleaning them up, modernize them as much as possible ,and listen, I don't think most people know, but you really were highly responsible for that, that second, Second Avenue subway system. Am I correct? I mean, getting that approved under your administration, which I think is a big deal.
Governor Cuomo: Second Avenue subway, pardon my pride, but it really is, for those people who are visiting New York, is really worth seeing the Second Avenue subway, it is beautiful, and it also opened up the East Side of Manhattan. So the development, the real estate values all went up, right? Infrastructure, transportation drives development, and it did. Second Avenue subway is an example of that. But your point was exactly right, Phil. The subway system in New York was one of the really enduring visions that just reaped dividends, right? 1904.
Mayor Levine: Oh, yes.
Governor Cuomo: They're going to build an underground subway system., that is going to be hundreds of miles. I mean, how do you even think of that in 1904, right?
Mayor Levine: Incredible.
Governor Cuomo: But one fare, by the way, and you go anywhere with that one fare—that was the vision and in many ways it was, it is, what makes the city work. It's also the canary in the coal mine. When things are going bad, you see it first in the subways. And that's what's happening here. You're seeing it in the subways first, and again, it comes back primarily to the mentally ill which can be resolved. You know, during COVID, we had so many different stories during COVID, but one story was if you remember that you could get COVID by touch, you could touch some things so people were cleaning their groceries, et cetera. When that came out, people didn't want to get on the subways in the buses, right? Because if you can now get COVID by touch and you're going through a subway, everyone's holding the same pole, the same man? So, and if people don't show up for work during COVID, you have a problem because you need the police and the firefighters and the nurses, et cetera. So what we did was we closed the system for about two hours, like at 4 o'clock in the morning, cleaned every subway car with a disinfectant, every subway car, every subway station with a disinfectant. And did that in about two hours and then reopened. And that all the homeless had become out of every train and every station, every night. And we did that so it's possible. These things are all possible, Phil.
Mayor Levine: It takes will.
Governor Cuomo: It takes will, it takes confidence, it takes the ability to deal with opposition and controversy.
Mayor Levine: Yes.
Governor Cuomo: And you touched on this before, but none of these things happen without controversy. and politicians are afraid of controversy.
Mayor Levine: You got it.
Governor Cuomo: So even if they have the confidence and they had the experience and they have the team and they have the ability, they still have to be willing to deal with the confidence, I'm sorry, with the controversy to actually implement the change.
Mayor Levine: Listen, I remember myself in Miami Beach. We're dealing with sea level rise. I started tearing up one of our main roads, lifting the road, putting in pumps, making sure that it wouldn't flood all the time, which ruined people's cars. My mom was driving down the street. She called me and she said, what the hell are you doing? I said, mom, I'm raising the streets. The streets are going underwater. She said, let me tell you something, my boy. She said, if you were running for mayor again, I wouldn't vote for you, okay? Now, of course, what happens is a year, a year and a half later, the street is dry as can be and everyone is ecstatic and they have political amnesia, but it takes will, will to not to to fight back at that. Which gets me to put a next interesting point, you know, if I was, if I was to ever run in your campaign, and I would just tell everyone who was thinking about whether they want to vote for you or not, to just go to La Guardia airport, okay? Here was the worst airport in America, and now it's seriously the nicest airport in America. Tell me about that. What was that experience like? Because that had to be the hardest thing in the world to get done.
Governor Cuomo: Well, hold on one second, because we just added a factor to that, the equation for democratic resurgence and actually making government work, you needed the experience, you needed the ability, you needed the willingness to take on controversy, and deal with your mother, and then you have to have the willingness to deal with the risk because there is a major risk factor. I remember the Big Dig up in Massachusetts.
Mayor Levine: Boston, sure.
Governor Cuomo: It is a major risk. You're going to go to rebuild an airport. Wow, this is a big risk. You could be over budget, you could run late. Who knows what could happen? Why would you run the risk? It's so risky. So, this is another factor for the equation, but La Guardia Airport was the worst in the United States? And we had to we didn't have to, because no I didn't have to do anything, right? We wanted to have a world class airport, right? Airports are the front door. You're trying to attract tourism, et cetera. La Guardia happens to have the smallest footprint of any airport in the United States. So we had to continue operating the airport and build a new airport at the same time, which many people said was impossible. It was difficult to tell, tell you the truth, but we did it. But we did it, it's all new, it just won the best airport in the United States.
Mayor Levine: It's incredible. When you go through that airport, it's just like you go like God, this is the way America should be. I wish that Manhattan could, could morph into La Guadia airport based on the way it looks and how clean it is and how it's operating. Now, tell me a little about Penn Station. You know, how did that come about? Because that was the worst train station in America. Now here it is, and I believe that goes under your administration. It's great now.
Governor Cuomo: What's called Moynihan Train Station because it was the vision of Senator Moynihan, which was God rest his soul, which was a conversion of an old post office into an adjacent train to Penn, really. And it was the same thing. They broke ground probably 20 years before. They named it, broke ground, and then just never built it. The same thing—the same thing, same thing, same thing over and over. And we built the Moynihan Train Station. It is really incredible. What makes that is it was the an old post office and it has this phenomenal skylight because they they used to sort the mail in the Post Office, manually, obviously, so they had to read the envelopes, so to read the envelopes, they built this skylight looks like the size of a football field.
Mayor Levine: How interesting.
Governor Cuomo: Just magnificent and we kept the original skylight, so just from an architectural point of view, it's stunning.
Mayor Levine: Incredible and listen, that's all about transportation and what are your thoughts, Governor right now, because it's been controversial and obviously the White House got involved with the and I've had this conversation in Miami Beach and we have big traffic. What do you think about congestion pricing? Is this something you like? You don't like? Where does this go?
Governor Cuomo: Congestion pricing— I like it, because I passed it, they tried to pass it for many years, Mike Bloomberg was the mayor who pushed it very hard. I think it is the right policy and that's why I passed it. The question became when to implement it in the concept of congestion pricing was, if you drive we're going to increase your toll, but you have an alternative which is a safe clean mass transit system so you don't have to drive. When it was implemented in New York recently, it was right in the midst of some really terrible tragic situations on the subway system. The subway system is not welcoming right now and it's in this transition moment where we're trying to get people to come back to the city because we still are only about 60 percent occupied in the office buildings so I was concerned that it might be an impediment now to get people back in and the subways might be an impediment but it's a place President Trump is against it. It's in court. It has reduced the traffic in Manhattan, we hope people, we hope people are taking mass transit in. I think we still have to wait and see what the actual numbers are. Are they staying home or are they coming in? But it has reduced traffic.
Mayor Levine: That's a good thing. And when you listen, you're going into a Democratic Primary and you know, I always say, I wouldn't wish my worst enemy to have to be in the Democratic Primary. And that's coming up around the corner, you know, you there's always that, you know, how left do I have to go and, you know, what are my Democratic bona fides? I mean, you know, when you, when you're talking to that crowd, how do you deal with it? I mean, do you talk about, you know, the fact that you were the, you know, you you pass same sex marriage in in New York, as the governor and that's gotta be a big thing for you to talk about in New York City.
Governor Cuomo: Yeah, it'll be, you know, we come up with these abstract distinctions. We're now progressives, like it's a new word. They say it's like it's a new concept. It's not a progressive. Franklin Delano Roosevelt for progressive government, vote for FDR. He stole it from Teddy Roosevelt, right? So, yeah, Democratic Party is the progressive party, but to be a progressive, you actually have to make progress, right? Which gets us back to our first point of competence and the the acknowledgement that government is actually a service entity and there is no governor who passed as many progressive pieces of legislation, as I did, as you said, we were the first big state to pass marriage equality, which is five years before the Supreme Court decided it. And we really jumpstarted the whole conversation all across the country because, as he says with New York arrogance, when New York does something, it communicated across the country, and New York pass marriage equality, the next day they went to President Obama and said, what would you do? And the next day they went to every Democratic governor and senator and said, well, will you do this? So marriage equality, highest minimum wage in the United States of America, best paid family leave program, free college tuition for the middle class, most aggressive green energy program in the United States. So my progressive bona fides are all there, there is still a, and I add to it, the practical of we have to get things done. This is not just debating society or an academic lecture, we have to be able to get things done.
Mayor Levine: Governor, you are possibly going to be the next Mayor of New York, or going from governor to mayor of New York City, they're one of the greatest cities in the world. I'm gonna ask you something a little off the wall and I just wanna get your thought, right when I tell you, three great famous songs about New York City, and I'll tell you the song and I'll read you quick lyric of it. I wanna know as I go through each one, what's the thought in your mind as the as possibly the next mayor of New York when you hear this song of these lyrics? The first one is New York, New York by Sinatra, and he says if we can make it here, I'm gonna make it anywhere. What do you think of when you hear that?
Governor Cuomo: It's the place where you go if you want to be the best at what you do and compete against the best at what you do.
Mayor Levine: New York state of mind, Billy. I'm in a New York state of mind. What is it mean to you?
Governor Cuomo: Well, I love that song. New York state of mind and he goes on to talk about, reading the Sunday papers, but also the variety of New— New York, you know, he's talking about the Hudson River. You know, New York, you know, you know, because you spend a lot of time here, but people think skyscrapers, New York density, no, you have that that a great mention that very central city, but then you have the Hudson River, you have the Hudson Valley, you have Long Island, you have the beaches, and all of that is New York, and that's the New York state of mind.
Mayor Levine: And the third one is Empire State of Mind, Jay-Z and Alicia Keys, where he always says, ‘yeah, I'm out at that Brooklyn. Now I'm down in Tribeca, right next to DeNiro, but I'll be hood forever’. How do you feel when you hear that song?
Governor Cuomo: You can never lose where we came from and we don't give up who we are. We don't give up the old neighborhood. We don't give up the old country, we don't give up our ethnicity, our culture, but you can become extraordinary and highly successful, but we still keep the soul of where we came from. And that's okay, and we actually celebrate that.
Mayor Levine: Thank you, Governor. It's been wonderful having this conversation with you. Appreciate it so much, and I'm, I'm wishing you all the luck in the world and your quest to be the Mayor of New York City.
Governor Cuomo: Thank you. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you for the conversation, Phil. I enjoyed it.
Mayor Levine: Thank you.
Listen to the Interview Here
###